Tactics Used by Mining Companies
When facing Opposition from the Community
Excerpts and summaries from: http://www.wrpc.net/corporate.html
Mining companies learn from the success of grassroots groups
who oppose them and adjust their strategy accordingly.
CORPORATE STRATEGIES FOR OVERCOMING LOCAL RESISTANCE TO
NEW MINING PROJECTS By Al Gedicks, Sociology University of Wisconsin – La Crosse
1. Thwart Local Democratic Control
“Before mining companies can receive permits to mine in Wisconsin, they must have the approval of local units of government –a major obstacle for [mining companies].”
Mining companies seek to keep the people out of the process by bringing local leaders and company officials together to negotiate a ‘local agreement‘, often in closed session meetings.
2. Legal Challenges to Local Zoning Authority – lawsuits against small towns
“The power of large, multinational mining corporations to threaten lawsuits against small rural townships who dare to withhold permission for exploration and mining can be very intimidating.”
This threat has been used effectively by corporate mining interests in Wisconsin. Small towns and cities do not have the resources for lawsuits against powerful corporations.
[ Our Concern: Will Canadian Sand and Proppants threaten lawsuits against Chippewa Falls ? ]
3. Mass Media Campaigns
Public impressions of Mining are lower than for any other industry. Mining corporations use media campaigns to:
“Greenwash” their image
Accuse their opponents of spreading misinformation
Accuse those fighting to keep the environment safe and clean of being ‘Anti- jobs’
Offer enticements to a community – “buy us off”
Economic benefits for giving up health and environmental concerns
Tell citizens DNR approval mean there will be “no harm to the environment or health”
“You are not from here”
Once again, the arrogant and ego driven can not possibly believe anyone from “here” could be an intelligent person and not agree with their misguided conclusions. This, is an example of paranoia.
Have you been paying attention? Both of my parents were born in Tilden. I have a very common surname found in this area. I was born in a Chippewa County hospital and was raised in Chippewa County. I have lived most of my life in Chippewa County. Always in the nearby area. I now live in Chippewa County, where I have almost all of my life. How many times do I have to say it? This is another example of what your closed mind will get you, the same garbage you keep regurgitating. The morewrong you are, the more you believe you are right.
I am a Christian man, and somehow I don’t feel right about swearing on anyones soul, especually for something this trivial. But I could swear on my dearly departed parents souls if it would make you fell less paranoid, To swear I was born and raised here and lived here practically all of my life. That would cost you a level of self righteousness though, wouldn’t it??
” You speak of us as if you are from somewhere else, and we are the outsiders. Ex: “you people have created” and “your world” are dead giveaways.”
More of another example of your self righteousness that paranoia in this one, also clearly an example of being unable to comprehend. Likely caused by a jaded and closed mind trying desperately to justify ones own misguided cause.
I speak of “you” as the cult that you have become. Not a geographical distinction, but one of ideology steeped in one sided propaganda. The distinctions you attempt to make about “you people” or “your world” are dead giveaways of someone chasing their own tail. That would be you. I speak of you not as individuals, but again as a group or better put, a cult.
“here in the Chippewa Valley neighbors usually communicate directly– they talk to one another. It is our tradition.”
You are either telling a lie to justify your cause or you people (speaking to the cult as a whole) are not following your advise. You have spit in the face of your neighbors, and you continue to with glee. If you truly had an open mind, as I do and as I have done, you would congradulate them and welcome the new business over that cup of coffee. Instead you take friends and CHOOSE to make them enemies over your own self bred selfish FANTASY.
Paranoia: a psychosis characterized by systematized delusions of persecution or grandeur without hallucinations. A tendency on the part of an individual or group toward excessive or irrational suspiciousness and distrust of others.
Need one for delusion, fantasy, or cult as well?
I had to go to Wausau yesterday, should have seen the dust cloud for a 20 mile span east of Wausau. Sand Mine? Nope, farmers. You see the top soil has a very low moisture value, with no sprinklers or water trucks available to aid the thousands of acres. Where is the humanity?
You are from Tilden? Why didn’t you say so– hi neighbor! Sorry If I upset you– I did not read all the threads. Lets leave it at that– your comments speak for themselves.
“How much are they paying you to blog”
Once again, we hear from the paranoid and delusional. Because someone doesn’t agree with the lunatic fringe that we’re all going to die at the hands of the sand monster they must be on somebodys payroll. That white flag makes for a pretty lame debate but once again does provide something on the humor scale!
I have some time on my hands, and I like a lively debate. I was born and raised here and truly care about the Chippewa Valley and its people. You people have created an environment here which provides purpose in your lives and feeds your ego for some while providing a “safe” haven for those scared of ghosts and goblins for others. Enjoy your little piece of nirvana but most people realize you’re not dealing with reality. You can’t, not with your minds closed and eyes sewn shut.
Yes, yes, please somebody pay me. I’d love to get paid to blog, what a great concept! Those that believe that have arrived at the destination of their quest. That place is out there like Pluto.
I do find it intersesting that some people are so full of their own self serving ego that they would automatically assume I or anyone would be on somebodys payroll. In their mind, “how could any intelligent person not see the world as I do”???
Pretty simple. Your world is devoid of facts and common sense, a symptom of a closed mind. I can’t say it enough, but I realize the self consumed will not allow themselves to leave the safe place they have created for themselves.
I welcome this new industry and businesses to our area as would any sane and unselfish person. I welcome the hundreds of quality jobs and the revenue and free enterprise stimulus we will be fortunate enough to experience for a very long time while many parts of the country slowly sink deeper into economic oblivion. And this will remain a great place to live and raise a family.
Namaste.
You are not from here: “I truly care about the Chippewa Valley and it’s people.” You speak of us as if you are from somewhere else, and we are the outsiders. Ex: “you people have created” and “your world” are dead giveaways. I noticed in another exchange you denigrated a frightened lady for voicing her concerns regarding a longtime neighbor selling his land for sand without having the courage to speak to her about it first. Ishmael, Inc. here in the Chippewa Valley neighbors usually communicate directly– they talk to one another. It is our tradition. Farming requires cooperation with neighbors, as we share the resources of the ecosystem. Often a handshake can seal a promise– that will hold a lifetime. You are attempting to “win the hearts and minds”, but it falls flat and insincere. It does not ring true.
What you bring to the discussion is standard talking points previously presented by mine reps in Powerpoint slides and a personal story surrounded by absolutely no specific details- none.
Shill: Def: “A shill, plant, or stooge is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that he has a close relationship with that person or organization. Shill typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that he is an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) for whom he is secretly working. The person or group who hires the shill is using crowd psychology, to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by professional marketing campaigns.”
Sadly, shilling is not delusional, it is reality. It is done, and when there is millions of dollars at stake, why wouldn’t it be done– it makes economic (though not ethical) sense. If it wasn’t done by a company facing populist opposition that could reduce their leverage, then it would be a surprise.
” Fresh young woman geology grad out of the local U. Mediocre at best. Family riches from sand mining industry.”
I literally have no idea what you are babbling about here. I guess it ranks right up there with everything else you have offered. This is your chosen expert people, garbage in and garbage out.
“Go to the scientific data.”
Again, insinuating you and yours are the only ones who have gone to the scientific data. I don’t believe that the majority of people are dumb and blind enough to follow this self serving and pompous lead. You mean to tell me that only sand huggers like you study the scientific data??? Not even the DNR, townships, county, etc etc have not studied the scientific data? No, only you have studied the scientific data, and carefully chery picked with a big dash of selfish opinion mixed in. Of course freshly baked and served as fact to the starving sheep.
“People looking for the fast buck have a surface view of the industry.”
…and once again providing us with pure jaded opinion served up as fact for the gullible.
I will gain zero dollars on any of these ventures. Most people won’t. But most people can look beyond themselves, look beyond selfish and jaded notions to see the many great positives this new industry presents the entire area. We are talking about hundreds of quality jobs here folks, and no more cost to anyone beyond what any business would bring.
The economic impact for the people that WILL benefit is not a “fast buck”. For the landowners it is truly a windfall, and many of them are farmers who were struggling to keep their farm and feed their family. The many hundreds of workers will also see a long term benefit, and a very serious one. Life changing for all of these people, and in a very positive way. Now we look at the trickle down effect, all this money being pumped back into area businesses of all kinds not to mention the tax base as a whole.
There is no fast buck here for anyone, that is just another blatant lie. There is a major long term benefit, a benefit that only free enterprise can bring.
Once these plants are up and running there willbe no public outcry, only rejoicing. That’s what prosperity brings. Some would rather drive prosperity out and replace it with continued and growing poverty. Wake up people, poverty is a real ghost.
Cherry picking? Fresh young woman geology grad out of the local U. Mediocre at best. Family riches from sand mining industry. Go to the scientific data. People looking for the fast buck have a surface view of the industry. Appears that is what you are demonstrating.
Got too long on that last one and I got cut off.
Think about it, using the logic that some on this site try to sell there would be no business at all. Silicosis? A couple of million people face the risk in this country every year. We’re talking about respirable crystalline silica, and it can be found in many industries. It is an occupational hazard, not a public hazard. But the garbaga being forced fed here would tell you we will all die. It’s all a lie. Do you bake and use flour? The flour industry can be very dangerous to work in because of resperation, but there is no risk to the public and no risk to the workers if the proper precautions are observed. Companies have been excavating sand and gravel for generations, just as farmers have been farming for generations. Have there been silicosis epidemics? Not at all, even in times when zero precautions were employed.
My dad farmed in this area for 50 years. He never had a tractor with a cab. He would come in at night absolutely black with sand dust head to toe. He would have to strip and wash up in the barn before he even came in to clean up. This was the same “silica” we are excavating now. He never wore a mask, and every farmer around was in the same spot. He lived to be a very old and healthy man, even though he also smoked! How much silica did he absorb and breathe in? Where is the silicosis epidemic in the Chippewa Valley?
Today a multitude of precautions are taken to protect the workers, and even though the public is at no risk precautions are taken there as well.
Yes, do some research. Do some comparables. Understand that this is nothing new, sand mines are found all across this country with long documentations.
I’m not asking you to believe me, I am asking you to wake up and apply some common sense. To believe the one sided cherry picked propaganda you will find on this site would be far removed from not only common sense but reality.
This is good, “whisperer” is asking for my credentials, as if to insinuate that they themselves actually own some!
If you were at all paying attention you would have seen that my background is hydrology as applied to municipalities. It is not a background working with mining or aggragate specifically, but I do have a great deal of experience with water tables and flocculant usage in general. Since I live right smack in the middle of mining country I have done a fairly extensive personal research on the issue. I assure you, I have a lifetime of doing research on various topics.
“Your response is full of unsubstantiated opinion.The study was done by researchers; it is doubtful you have any background in research.”
I have piles of research on this issue collected over a period of years. Yes, it was done by real “researchers”. (chuckle) I like learning about new things, and combined with my experience, education, and life situation I’ve thrown a lot of time into it. Like I said, you people have no interest in opening your mind to opinions, expert or otherwise, if it doesn’t serve your own selfish motives. The “research” you’ve presented is evidence of that. You could have not cherry picked your propaganda more carefully. I’ve literally found in the past some of the same stuff you presented. along with much “research” to the contrary.
I clearly understand I am wasting my time here, one always is when encountering those with minds that are frozen shut and eyes that are sewn shut.
” Silica mines are not sand and gravel pits and therefore create an entirely different set of concerns.”
Good one. What is silica? What is sand? Answer one and you will find the other. “Silica” or silcion dioxide is the main component in sand. Usually but not always in the form of quartz. ALL sand is essentially silica. I’m going back to elementary stuff here but hey, you brought it up. I truly can not impress enough to people out there to do your own research, and do it with an open mind. Consider the comparables, consider everything with common sense. Talk to those that have been in the business for decades, and the landowners. I worked side by side for years with engineers and at times with geologists on projects. Seek these people out, and not by cherry picking. I’m sure Kent Syverson at UW-Eau Claire would be more than willing to give you some expert advice on the matter. That’s just one example, you need dozens.
” Why don’t you get a job and preferably in the sand mining/processing industry rather than sitting around grinding out propagada that is purely opinion.”
I certainly would pursue that avenue if I was looking for employment. I am semi-retired at a fairly young age. I do some consulting work and occasionally contract out on a part time basis. You, whisperer and a few others, are the propaganda specialists. Cherry picking your data mixed with your own jaded opinion and then presenting it as fact knowing there are plenty of gullible who will blindly bow to you.
Want to do the right thing people? You can’t if you employ a closed mind like many found on this site. Open your mind, do your own research, and by all means search for your own comparables. We have one in nearby Menomonie, in Chippewa Falls, in Leseuir, MN. Do hundreds of quality jobs mean nothing to you people? I realize that you’ve got ghosts and goblins jumping out at you thanks to the likes of whisperer, but wake up people. These ghosts and goblins aren’t real.
How much are they paying you to blog. Ishy?
Ish……….supply the readers with absolute facts then. Quit using negative descripters. Your response is full of unsubstantiated opinion.The study was done by researchers; it is doubtful you have any background in research. If so, state your credentials. Silica mines are not sand and gravel pits and therefore create an entirely different set of concerns. So far, government officials have not learned the difference. Obviously you have not either. It is people like you who continue to grind away how this industry is safe and will create jobs. Why don’t you get a job and preferably in the sand mining/processing industry rather than sitting around grinding out propagada that is purely opinion. Go get a life in the sand mines!
The vast majority of the people you will find here JD do not want to talk about reality. They do not want to talk about logic. They have no intention of approaching this with an open mind or to apply any amount of common sense to the matter. Thankfully for the entire area their misguided and selfish motives are represented by the vast minority. In time, as these operations are in full swing and running well, even their numbers will dwindle. Reality has a way of imposing itself even on those who choose to ignore it.
I do not disvalue the propaganda “whisperer” attempts to sell the gullible. There is some value to everything. The misinformation and cherry picking of sources and information is startling though, and what else could we expect? It’s all pretty well summed up with this statement…”It is important to note that these impacts are permanent. ”
Permanent?? Really? The hundreds of new employees are not a market for these few homes in question? More buyers = higher home values! Permanent? You mean when these sites are reclaimed to farm land and woodland and forest and native prairie grasslands it will still be permanent?? The whole thing is truly laughable!! Yet so many sheep blindly continue to walk off the cliff….hook, line and sinker!
Yes, JD we have hundreds of gravel and sand pits thoughout Wisconsin and that has never stopped people from continuing to build right next to them! My minnesota example is a bigger yet example.
But these people here (the majority) are not interested in the truth. They are not interested in facts or comparables that do not serve their master.
“if you want to be a bully, please go elsewhere. We are all here to learn, not be called names!”
I guess by your definition I would be a bully as to you being a blind toad…….remember that would be going by your own definition.
How are property values “tactics used by miners?”
I recently sold my house, which happens to be right down the town road from a sand mine. Property values were about the same as they have been for the past 5 years. I know this because I also considered selling 5 years ago, before I knew of any sand mines. The $$ I got for the house was right where both valuations said it should be. I’m going to be building just on the other side of this mine, since I had already bought the lot. There is a small hill and trees between us, which will stay. It’s a great place to build. I don’t anticipate any property value problems. If anything, they might go up. We’ve got houses built all around the gravel pits in this state, including the ones off of HWY 64, outside of Chetek, outside of Eau Claire. People are still building big homes around them. I guess people can dig up a problem anytime they want if they want to ignore reality.
“you have already made clear that you have a low opinion of anyone concerned about possible negative impacts of frac sand mining. ”
You are claiming my basis is consumed by assumption, at times one may assume for debate sake but that is not my basis. Above and below is/are examples of your own assumption.
I myself have concerns about this issue. I weigh them with common sense and actual data. I acknowledge the great positives, and know that we can work with these companies. It is those that want to shut down these operations, deny the landowners their opportunity, deny the whole Chippewa Valley of this great opportunity that I have a “low opinion of”. These companies and landowners will not be allowed to hurt anyone, that I am 100% sure of. The people with the blinders on who want to stop the sand excavation period will hurt multitudes. My call is to stand with the landowners, my neighbors, and welcome this great opportunity. At the same time, work with them as partners monitoring every aspect of it.
““In circumstances where people live near a source of crystalline silica, data from other air pollution control agencies shows that silica ambient air concentrations could be above a level of concern.”
So would a cement crushing operation, so would a large hot mix plant, so would a large dairy or creamery, so would a large rendering plant, so would a nuclear plant etc etc etc.
Sand excavation sites are nothing new, and there are numerous ways to eliminate any said risk.
Trying to save bandwidth here. The DNR study I was talking about was one wanted by various sand huggers which would stop all “mining” until it was completed. Maybe you don’t, but many in your tub truly have the goal of finding enough delays one way or another to run the companies out. I would feel very bad for my neighbors if that were to happen, (it won’t) not just for them but the whole Chippewa Valley. I myself do not need the economic stimulus this free enterprise presents for us, but many do.
” Until that choice is taken from them, of course.”
Sure, like it was when the Mid Am creamery took from small town residents when it was built right smack in the middle of Bloomer. Like it was “taken” from the residents of Eau Claire when the Uniroyal palnt was built. These people did not want these large businesses buried right smack in their back yard, and what would the communities give to get them back? As I said, there are a lot of selfish and short sighted people out there removed from all common sense. They find relief here.
Getting kind of long here but…”“In circumstances where people live near a source of crystalline silica, data from other air pollution control agencies shows that silica ambient air concentrations could be above a level of concern.”
Stand out in front of the huge sand piles for hours at end 5 days a week with your mouth open and the wind in your face and yes, you may have a potnetial problem. Really, they have a very good grasp on the situation and as I said have numerous ways to eliminate the threat. That threat being occupational, but certainly their methods of control will save the public too.
I have no problem with monitoring. I have a problem with thick headed stooges who with a completely closed mind want nothing but to stop the landowners and companies from bringing prosperity to the entire area.
OK. Our small township is the next area of interest to sand miners. Yes, we all have health and environmental concerns… The concern I am trying to find answers for is where can I get data regarding what happens to land values? I want to get correct and accurate answers to the concern that land values for nearby landowners plummets 30-50% when a sand mine move in. ….we can assume this is true as no one wants to live next to a sand mine, right? But I dont want to assume, I want to know. Can someone tell me how I can find this out? Appreciate it.
Property values do decrease for those living near or next door to sand and gravel pits. A silica mine with it running 24x7x 365 days per year is even more impacting than sand and gravel operations yet people tend to look at them as identical to each other. Not so! Dr. Diane Hite completed a study:
Property Value Losses from Quarrying Operations
The Centre for Spatial Economics produced an extensive analysis of many studies done on the impacts of quarrying and other undesirable industries on property values. It can be found here:
http://www.town.caledon.on.ca/contentc/townhall/departments/planningdevelopment/Schedule_B_to_CAO_Report_2009-001.pdf
The Centre’s analysis is titled, “The Potential Financial Impacts of the Proposed Rockfort Quarry.” The work of the following researchers is included:
Professor Diane Hite of Auburn University in Alabama is an economist who has published widely in the area of property value impact analysis. Using a hedonic pricing model procedure which separately accounts for the relative impacts on house values of a variety of attributes, Professor Hite examined the effects of distance from a gravel mine in Delaware County, Ohio on the sale price of more than 2,500 residential properties in the late 1990s.
George E. Erickcek of the W.E. Upjohn Institute for Employment Research recently used Professor Hite’s model to assess the potential impacts of the proposed Stoneco Gravel Mine in Richland Township, Michigan on property values in the area.
CONCLUSION: Properties closest to the gravel mine faced the largest value declines, and property value declines diminished with distance from the mine.
Properties within 0.31 miles of the mine dropped in value by 25 percent or more.
The decline 0.625 miles away was between 15 and 20 percent.
The decline 1 mile away was just under 15 percent.
The decline 1.25 miles away was just over 10 percent.
The decline 2 miles away was just under 10 percent.
The decline 2.5 – 3.1 miles away was between 5 and 7 percent.
It is important to note that these impacts are permanent. While it is true that properties within these ranges will increase in value in the future in line with increases in average property values in general in the broader area, it is equally true that the gap in values resulting from the negative impact of the quarry persists over time. Dr. Hite’s further studies have shown that these drops in value are true regardless of the type of quarry.
A few quotes found in this extensive analysis:
“the chance of a gravel mine not having an adverse effect on housing values is one in one thousand.”
“There is an extensive literature applying hedonic models to study the effects of environmental disamenities on residential property values. These studies generally show that proximity to landfills, hazardous waste sites, and the like has a significant negative effect on the price of a residential property.”
“People worldwide oppose proposals for the development of new quarries or the expansion of existing facilities in their neighbourhoods. The opposition is understandable. As the Pembina Institute4 recently pointed out:
Operators of pits and quarries remove virtually all vegetation, topsoil and subsoil to access theresource. In so doing, they remove any natural habitat that may have been on site, and disrupt pre-existing stream flows . . .
The extraction of aggregate resources changes the slope of the land and alters water drainage patterns . . . Once the aggregate is extracted . . . water storage capacity is lost.
Aggregate operations . . . are characterized by the release of significant amounts of particular matter (i.e. dust) and noise pollution from extraction and processing activities as well as smog precursors and greenhouse gases from the operation of heavy equipment and machinery. The heavy truck traffic to and from aggregate sites is often a serious hazard and nuisance affecting people over wider areas, and is a significant source of air pollution itself.
The quality of life sought by rural residents reflects the sum total of the many desirable attributes of rural settings including peace, solitude, proximity to nature, etc.”
While the original study by Hite is not available online, much of her background information and work can be found here: http://ideas.repec.org/e/phi45.html#articles
Of special interest is this study by Sa Chau Ho and Diane Hite: “Economic Impact of Environmental Health Risks on House Values in Southeast Region: a County-Level Analysis.” Silica Sand Mining presents health risks related to exposure to Respirable Crystalline Silica. Few states have any regulations controlling emissions of silica to the ambient air. There are occupational standards and regulations, but none for protecting public health. With widespread sand mining occurring, should cancer rates or other health problems be documented at higher levels near sand mining, this may further reduce property values. This study may be found here: http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/19921/1/sp04ho05.pdf
Another site offers good commentary about property value declines R/T nearby oil and gas facilities. While not specifically about sand mining, good points are made that may also apply to values near quarries. From the website of a group fighting a proposed Liquid Natural Gas (LNG) facility in Vallejo, CA and the expected effect on property values: http://www.vallejocpr.org/lng/proposal-faq.html
Benicia is a “twin city” to Vallejo. Property values in Benicia are higher than Vallejo, even though Benicia has a refinery. The explanation from realtors there is this:
Benicia’s higher property values are in spite of the refinery and because of several unique characteristics of the town. The Vallejo refinery is over the hill and to the East of Benicia, and not within view of the large majority of Benicia’s residents. Indeed, passing through Benicia you would not even know there is a refinery.
Another major impact on home values is the fact that most Benicia homes come with a water view. Water views always increase the price of homes, and Benicia is no exception. While homes with a view of the water and the refinery will sell, homes with no water view and only a refinery view take the longest to sell and have the lowest property value. The few Vallejo homes with water views also enjoy higher values.
Reporting on other communities with LNG facilities:
Everett, Mass. has been home to the Distrigas LNG facility for almost 30 years — so long that most residents can’t remember what it was like without the facility. Their property values have slowly increased over the decades, as inflation and suburbanization have reached the town. But this increase has been markedly slower than other towns in the area.
Blight begets blight, and Everett proves it. Everett is dominated by heavy industry, including the Distrigas LNG plant and new nearby power plant. Despite being so near to Boston, an area rich with colleges, universities, computer, bio-tech and pharmaceutical industries, Everett has not been able to attract any of these types of businesses.
The problems caused by tanker trucks are well-known in communities with LNG plants and other plants where products must be shipped in or out. Trucks get a lot of complaints — they’re noisy, dirty, polluting, unsafe, they tear up the road, and they make it hard to cross the street.
Everett, Massachusetts struggles with nearly constant truck traffic from its LNG and other industrial facilities.
This is a rather old study from Wisconsin, about the added value of shoreline/waterfront property. Would sand mining operations near such properties reduce this added value? ttp://dnr.wi.gov/org/water/wm/dsfm/shore/documents/G3698_1.pdf
Another study from Wisconsin – Osceola Plan Commission contacted Town Assessor. Responses were non-committal, but it looks like the best ways for nearby values to increase would be if the mining company would buy out buffer properties: http://www.communityhotline.com/upload/PropertyValue_GeneJohnsonResponseSummary_12-14-08.pdf
Hope this is helpful information for you.
There are no thick headed stooges on this site, Ishmael, so if you want to be a bully, please go elsewhere. We are all here to learn, not be called names!
By the way I sincerely do want to commend the people that maintain this site for allowing alternative views to be aired here when obviously you wouldn’t have to. That is the way it should be. You have to admit, if nothing else I’ve been good for bumping the thread along!
Ishmael,
In your numerous posts you have already made clear that you have a low opinion of anyone concerned about possible negative impacts of frac sand mining. You have already made clear that you think anything people say here is worthless. You have already made clear that you think you know each and every one of us – our thoughts, wishes, and intentions, and that you know better than any of us what is true. Therefore, I think it is safe for you to stop repeating yourself on those points. However, I do want to commend you for recognizing the generosity of this website in allowing you voice those opinions.
First, you claim that there is zero public hazard. Hazard, or health risks, are not determined by opinion, but by rigorous scientific study. A substance either is or isn’t hazardous at certain levels. Once that is established we of course weigh what level of risk is reasonable for people to bear. We cannot eliminate all risk from our lives. This is where rational and cooperative discussions are useful, so a reasonable level of risk can be determined by the various agencies and communities that have to make these decisions. When things work right, public health is protected and no one is asked to risk their life or health OR to lose jobs.
Further refuting your claim that there is no public risk is this statement from the DNR Silica Study: “In circumstances where people live near a source of crystalline silica, data from other air pollution control agencies shows that silica ambient air concentrations could be above a level of concern.”
Second, you claim that the “overly cautious DNR won’t even consider an ongoing study.” Actually, the DNR Silica Study said, “In summary, more research is needed in Wisconsin in order to ascertain the range of ambient air exposures likely to occur, both near sources of silica emissions as well as from background levels of exposure.” This study also said, “The best way to determine what crystalline silica impacts are near a source is to conduct monitoring..”
In other words, here in “sand mining country” we do not know what the levels of silica dust are near sand mines, just that they might be higher than “safe.” I do think people rightly resent being told that they and their children are suppose to take on an unknown level of risk with no say in the matter.
Third, regarding your earlier comments about MSHAW, as you called it, protecting the workers. Both OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) and MSHA (Mining Safety and Health Administration) recognize their current standards and rules for crystalline silica are not protective and need updating. Also, OSHA has said, “Exposure studies and OSHA enforcement data indicate that some workers continue to be exposed to levels of crystalline silica far in excess of current exposure limits.” (I’m sure you could look these studies up for yourself)
Fourth, you are correct that there are many large sources of particulate pollution besides the sand mining industry. That of course misses the point that the particulate pollution level that matters most to people is the level they or their children are breathing. For this reason, many people choose to live away from big cities, away from industry, and away from mining. Until that choice is taken from them, of course.
Fifth, you seem to think the health based standard for silica that I mentioned is meaningless because it comes from scientists in California. Would you say Texas is also “whacked” out in the same way? Because Texas has adopted the same California standard I mentioned. The standard has not been refuted by anyone. It is quite simple. Below that level you would not expect negative health effects, and above it you would.
It is not clear to me how my referencing an undisputed standard for the safe level of crystalline silica makes me a typical average pompous leftie. Is it just the mention of “California?” Gosh, I will have to tell my sister who lives there with her husband, an engineer with a large oil company. He works on reducing the refinery’s pollution – which he thinks is a GOOD thing to do – and they both vote Republican.
Finally, you ask if I have ever visited a large mine. Yes, indeed I have. It was a well run mine, with all activities contained within the site and a half mile buffer zone between it and the nearest homes. A sensible way to mine in my opinion.
“How much of an investment do you have in this unproven method of hill, bluff, and ridge extraction as a means to destroy air and water properties and the way people live here?”
I have major investment in my home and family. I have no sand, but some nice acreage. The rest of your sentence is your own closed minded fantasy. Your own chosen fantasy, perhaps steeped in selfish motive.
“You might as well talk to the wind as talk to the people who visit this site.”
About the only accurate and honest thing you’ve had to offer. The people who “visit this site” are a combination of closed minded zealots and scared people (scared by ghosts who in the end will be proven to not exist) who want to be burped and led around by a ring they’ve placed in their own nose. Really, your presentation here is laughable. It’s all right to have opinion but don’t try to sell it as fact. That’s all this site offers, and there are plenty gullible enough to gobble it up. You offer nothing but conjecture, and most of it based on a created fantasy.
It’s perfectly fine to have concerns, I have concerns. As I said early on if your idea is to monitor our new neighbors I will stand strong with you. If your idea is to stop these new businesses then you have sold out to the loons.
If there were ever problems coming from these operations, health related problems or otherwise, I will be the first to be pounding on doors and making waves. These companies know this, and will have several agencies standing over them at all times.
But, carry on. Common sense isn’t as much fun or self empowering as fantasy role playing.
This is truly getting funnier by the moment. Your intentions are very clear. You want to totally eliminate these new businesses from coming into the area, and for zero good reason. Oh, you’ve got plenty of ghosts in the closet, and the more desperate you become the more foolish you look. You want to delay (permanently) these companies from coming in and providing the entire area with great jobs and much needed revenue at no real cost to anyone (other than a kinked bike path) with long drawn out and needless “studies”. You chicken little’s are more transparent than the ghosts and goblins you keep parading around. News flash for you. These businesses are coming, and they won’t even have to bring in their lawyers to get it done. That’s because anyone with a drop of common sense can see that the positives are huge and the negatives non-existent (except for a kinked bike path or two). That’s because we local people want and need these new jobs and can plainly see there is no more risk with this new business than there is with any of like size.
I’ll take a brief look at the latest failed attempt by “em” the friendly ghost.
I understood clearly what Kenny was trying to do and what is was trying to sell. Sure, you can take any business that is going to cause a lot of new activity and “study it” for the long term affects. Maybe we should study it for 10 years just to be safe, right? You are so far out in left field on this notion that the overly cautious DNR won’t even consider an ongoing study beyond what has already been done. For one simple reason, the idea is completely unfounded and not needed. Particulate matter?? You simply are clueless. Do you understand what amounts of “particulate” matter municipalities spew into the sky? How about PACTIV, got any clue? Cray and SGi? How about good old St. Joe hospital, do you have any clue? I won’t even bring up what Uniroyal dumped into the local sky. Nope, you are clueless. News flash, there are thousands of companies like Uniroyal in this country dumping massive amounts of particulate in the air far beyond what all these sand companies combined will! And that’s not counting what the cities do.
I love how you bring up California emissions in the typical pompous way of the average leftist. Yes, California is whacked on related issues and that’s part of the reason they are in economic destitution. At the same time there is a growing and very active mining and drilling industry beginning to thrive in the land of the Hollywood clueless.
“What distance from nearest residences are these 50 year old mines? What level of truck traffic are near neighbors exposed to near those mines,”
Have you ever visited the large mines in Minnesota and Illinois? Obviously not. I have. In Minnesota for example there are huge sand mines, much larger than any will be here, surrounded by houses. Not only surrounded by houses, but they’re building new near million dollar homes at the top all around the mine crater! As close as they can! The amount of truck traffic is very large, but they are on the best roads sand money can buy. Again, clueless.
Now you people all cuddle together and continue to have your meetings and pump each other up. It’s the best way you all have of stroking your egos and making it feel like you’re doing something good! When in reality you’re only serving your own selfish motives, or in many cases simply following like a blind sheep.
That last post by anonymous was obviously by me. I put my email and name down as always but for some reason it did not take. That happened once before.
As far as spelling that is something I excel in. To type on a key board is not my forte, and I never proof my pounding as I know I should. I also type in slang at times, so deal with it.
Bully? Because I don’t agree with you and your obvious slanted distortions? You’ve got your puppets like Kenny to do your bidding, now you want to censor your posters? Hey, you can keep your site to yourselves if you want. What a bland world some choose to paint for themselves when faced with reality.
That’s a good quote Ben. “A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”. I’ve read it before. Now look into a mirror and say it out loud 3 times and click your heels. Let the truth be told. I’ve got another one for you. “So you think that money is the root of all evil? Then tell me, what is the root of all money?”
I thought you people were trying to “Save Our Hills”? Now it’s “Save THE Hills”?? You now at least acknowledge that these are not YOUR hills? A very small baby step, and that’s likely the last one you will take. You can’t move forward with a blindfold on dragging the chains of a closed mind.
p.s. Hey Kenny, if I see you at Horizon’s some time I’ll stop by and introduce myself.
Ishmael
Despite Mr. Schmitt’s clear explanation of his Libby, MT comment, you remain bullheadedly married to your erroneous interpretation. It seems clear to me that Mr. Schmitt was not comparing the situations in any manner other than 1) IF there are ill effects they will not show up for years, and 2) it would be wrong for public officials to ignore the potential for harm if there is something they could or should do to prevent that harm now.
Moving on to your suggestion that there are comparables to what is happening in Chippewa and Barron counties.
Number of silicosis cases: Straw man argument. If you know this subject as well as you claim, then you know that silicosis is best diagnosed on autopsy. How many people do you know who have autopsies when they die of what appears to be heart and lung trouble? Normal chest x-rays frequently miss silicotic nodules. Have you considered that the population for which Mr. Schmitt is concerned – the neighbors living nearest mining operations – is not one that has never been easily followed through time to track whether or not they have contracted silicosis. Workers are much easier to track. Your statement also completely misses the fact that exposure to high levels of silica dust cause or contribute to many other illnesses besides silicosis.
Whether the silica dust is at levels above “safe” or not, no one denies that regular Particulate Matter levels will rise as a result of these operations. Any 10 point rise in PM, EVEN IF IT REMAINS BELOW THE EPA NAAQS will cause an increase in heart disease and mortality.
Next, in saying this is comparable: What distance from nearest residences are these 50 year old mines? What level of truck traffic are near neighbors exposed to near those mines, or is the trucking and rail loading all contained on site? ( As opposed to the model here which generously shares all aspects of mining, hauling, and processing with the maximum number of citizens possible?)
As for monitoring that you say is occurring, are you talking about PM10 monitoring or actual monitoring that speciates for respirable crystalline silica in such a way as to determine that those levels are below the KNOWN safe level? Or, do you have evidence proving that the California OEHHA standard for Crystalline silica is erroneously derived? If so, do enlighten us.
My Dear defeated Ken Schmitt, leader of the lunatic fringe and master of distortion,
Having worked for municipalities and in the world of acadamia in related areas of hydrology I know a little bit about flocculants and particulate matter. Because I have no direct mining or aggragate experience I’ve researched the issue further in recent years. I am familiar with the Libby, MT issue from my research but also because I am very familiar with the area in general. To compare the excavating of sand to vermiculite mining is either pure ignorance or blatant deceit. I suspect a degree of both at play here. Again, silicosis is real but it is not a public hazard and easily eliminated as an occupational hazard. There is great oversight concerning this. Have any of you ever visited a vermiculite mine? Have you ever visited a cement crushing operation? Have you ever visited a large sand mine that has been in existance for decades, say one of them near Leseuir, MN? You would find large scale differences in all of these operations, and the sand excavation areas and processing plants would be safer than your city park in comparison. They are excavating and washing sand, similar to what has been done for decades but in todays world with much greater safe guards of all kind. Continue to attempt to create some kind of monster, ghosts and goblins if you will. It does provide for cheap entertainment!
” If I mislead you …”
You’ve misled everybody, that was your intent. There is no comparison to draw here at all. But you have accomplished your mission if you can find enough sheep to blindly follow you.
“My comparision was meant to indicate that public officials first responsibilty is to protect the public health, safety, and welfare of their constituants….”
There is no debating that fact, but once again you are describing an elephant while looking at a humingbird. The county, townships, DNR, and MSHAW are so far up these companies butt that they can’t sit comfortably. There comes a point when “responsibility” is replaced with nonsensical phantoms, and you are way past that point.
“……. is an HONEST THOURGH STUDY of what is in the air. Would you have a problem with such a study?”
Honest? Thourogh? You mean you don’t believe there has never been one done by anyone? With multiple comparables right here in the midwest that have been in operation for many decades I would think that would be a good place to start. Why don’t you start with the number of silicosis cases in these areas today caused by sand “mining”. Both workers and public. Some of these mines are over 50 years old, and some of them much larger than anything we will have.
The air will be monitored here. Like it never has been before for any of these operations? Feel better, or is your bike path still kinked or road still slowed down?
“PS grow a set of gonads and put your real name on your comment also!”
Good one, and let some brainless sand hugger take out my mailbox or dig up my lawn out of spite? Now that just might cause me to do something bad if I caught him, and nobody wants that, right? You go ahead though, you’ve (chuckle) clearly identified yourself……
Ah, huh………….two outsiders: one working in a bubble without benefit of learning experience from either side and the other an academic person who doesn’t even know how to spell it. I am wondering if the two have taken any time or effort to read data on this website or, in fact, to study any singular issue related to this heavy industrial model that has overtaken this part of Wisconsin. Why are you bullies entering the scene? Is this dynamic duo fearful that this ponzi scheme will fail? How much of an investment do you have in this unproven method of hill, bluff, and ridge extraction as a means to destroy air and water properties and the way people live here? You might as well talk to the wind as talk to the people who visit this site.
“Nothing but verbage from a very paid blogger. I doubt you in all of your comments!”
OK, now we have a show of further paranoia and delusion. To assume that I am a “paid blogger” just because I may appear to be somewhat educated and yet haven’t fully bought into your grand illusion.
I absolutely am a born and raised resident of the Chippewa Valley. My parents born and raised in Tilden. My name a very common one in the area. I have not only never been “paid” by anyone I have never had a conversation with anyone from a sand company. I do know a couple of the landowners involved, but never have had talks directly about their operations. Again, when someone doesn’t serve your purpose then you must alienate them in order to make their testimonial meaningless. That’s right out of the leftists handbook. That is clearly nothing but distortion, you clearly are not interested in facts.
What do you doubt me on? Comparables? Libby, Montana and the asbestos problem there? The fact that your list of medical employees is meaningless? The fact that silicosis is zero public hazard, only an occupational hazard that is easily eliminated with proper procedures? Proper procedures that MSHAW is all over. Is it the fact that millions of dollars will be pouring into this economically starving area with hundreds of new quality jobs?? That the DNR and county closely monitor aquafers and surrounding well water? That agreements with the companies will pay for the roads and improve them far beyond what we’ve ever had before? That the companies will be guaranteeing property values, although I don’t believe values will be affected at all?
What, what do you doubt me on?
I too will be monitoring these new businesses and I welcome them. They are my neighbors, I live surrounded by them. We need them and we want them. Yes my life will be affected, I lose the use of my road and it’s a lot busier here now. It’s amazing what some selfish people will get a crying jag over. This will be fun for you all for a while, a few years from now when all the businesses are up and running they will run so well with so little negative you won’t have a use for this site!
My Dear Simple Ishmael,
Might I suggest that you go to Menards and read the warning on the bag of vermiculite(which is what was mined in Libby Montana) that indicates there is a crystalline silica hazard associated with the product just as there is with the fine particulate associated with the sand processing industry. If I mislead you to think that I meant that the same percentage of people would be affected as in Libby, my sincere apologies, It was known by state officials in Montana about the threat to public health associated with the vermiculite mines back in the 70′s and they looked the other way.My comparision was meant to indicate that public officials first responsibilty is to protect the public health, safety, and welfare of their constituants, not look the other way while innocent children and their parents are exsposed to a possible hazard threat which no good revalent scientific data is available, a fact incidently whichTom Maul the mine forman for EOG publicly stated at a Town of Howard monthly meeting earlier this year. What l as well as others have asked for from the beginning is an HONEST THOURGH STUDY of what is in the air. Would you have a problem with such a study?
Ken Schmitt PS grow a set of gonads and put your real name on your comment also!
Dear Mr. Schmitt, & Whisperer,
I honor your tenacity with regard to Ishmael, but use your energies on what you know to be the real battle. To waste it in discourse with Ishmael only serves his purposes. My Father’s words of wisdom have served me well “A fool convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”. I believe that we need your knowledge and obvious energies helping inform people that aren’t playing the “Devil’s Advocate”. Let him expound with his dribble, but please ignore his attempt to be the burr under your saddle, we’ve got work to do.
Ben Burnt
“We can wipe you off this map at any time”
Ahhhhh, now here we have it. To censor out any voice that may not play along with the agenda at hand and follow like a blind sheep. You can wipe me off this map you’ve created to play on irregardless of fact and given comparables. It really doesn’t matter, as this site and your one sided tainted opinion does.
” If you are an expert we would like to have you put a white paper on this site for all to see. Research is the main goal of the Save the Hills Alliance!”
The second sentence in you above snippet is simply laughable. The main goal of your “alliance” is distortion. That’s all you have to offer. Now granted, some of your believers are good people, you know the type that think voting for a leftist like Obama is a good thing because he is for the people. When the reality is you also have to look at what he is against, which is the Consitution, free enterprise, ambition, capitalism, and the individual. All the things that have made this counrty great. He is against America, yet so many blind sheep have continued to be fooled. Very similar to what your site here has to offer.
I have an enormous amount of research. Before I could ever begin to present it I will have to spend an awful lot of time exposing your many distortions and inaccuracies. A brief example would be where Ken Schmitt (who was recently thrown off the county board for good reason by the voting public) made a comparison to the “dangers” of silica to what happened to Libby, Montana. His presentation of such, and his attempted comparison, paints a picture that is steeped in nothing but lies. The problem in Libby was from asbestos. Nothing even closely related to sand. It’s comparing a hummingbird to an elephant. Did he disclose the differences?? He didn’t even make an attempt and for a clear reason. To do so would have exposed how stupid the comparsion was. Much easier to fool people when you cherry pick the details and then present them as fact.
Kind of like your chosen medical “professionals”. You slide a sign up sheet in front of somebody and tell them to sign it because “we’ve got to stop this invasion of sand companies”. Sounds OK so they sign it. LPN’s? RN’s? Ortho docs? Practically nobody with related experience and for those that do how hard is it to find someone who wants business stopped for there own selfish reasons?? Any idea how many extremely qualified medical professionals in related fields do not support you horrific medical delusion? If you’d only do the comparables, where there’s been very large (larger than what we will have here) sand mining going on for decades you’d see the truth.
The truth? The truth is not what you are after. The truth does not serve your agenda or the distorted presentation you offer.
“Blantantly being critical of people in Chippewa Falls is uncalled for”
Nowhere have I done that. I pointed out facts, before EOG built that plant this is what we were told by many of your supporters. It was all a lie. The vast majority of people knew it was a lie, what is disturbing is know doubt at least some of your supporters had to be smart enough to also know it was a lie. But the agenda had to be served, and ego had to be stroked. Whether we just don’t want our bike path kinked or don’t want to have to follow trucks on the road we all have our true agenda, don’t we? Yes, any business will bring hustle and bustle, meaning traffic. The alternative?? Growing poverty for an area that would otherwise flourish with good jobs and revenue.
Nothing but verbage from a very paid blogger. I doubt you in all of your comments!
Do some research people, and not just on these sandista sites that ignore real facts but play heavy on emotion.
Do you remember what the anti’s told us when EOG was going to build their plant in Chippewa Falls? According to what they tried to sell the public St. Joes’ hospital would have to shut down and you’d have to shovel the sand from the lots at Cray and SGi. The Family Restaurant would need to keep a bucket on a skid steer to keep their lot open. It was all bunk. A flat out lie. Now some of the people spreading this trash were not lying, they were simply being a good blind sheep and following the tail in front of them. Don’t be a blind sheep. Do some real research, do some real comparables. I’ve done them, and I’ll say it again. Once these new businesses are up and running you won’t hear a peep. You WILL have a lot of very happy people with hundreds of new quality jobs and millions of dollars of new revenue pouring into the area. Really, wake up people.
State your facts Ishmael. If you are an expert we would like to have you put a white paper on this site for all to see. Research is the main goal of the Save the Hills Alliance! State the facts about silica and its hazards. Convince the DNR to scientifically study the impact of fine crystalline silica dust on the human organism, animals and plants. Blantantly being critical of people in Chippewa Falls is uncalled for. There is more knowledge than you can cough up among some very intelligent people……and you can’t even cough up fine silica dust. We can wipe you off this map at any time we want but we would like to see you do an independent scientific study that justifies everything you say. You are the blind sheep if you don’t!!! Do some research and state it Ishmael.
“If sand mining can be regulated to minimize these impacts on the commons, then go ahead. But if not, then we should stop them.”
Has gravel “mining” been regulated to minimze these impacts? The answer is no, in the past there was very little regulation or oversight. Big pits digging well below water table, hauling without tarps, doing pretty much what they wanted. The excavation of sand here and many others places is under heavy regulation and oversight. I live surrounded by this very activity, and soon to be much more. Unfortunately I own no sand. It will change my ability to use the road I live on. Boo hoo hoo for me. That road was not built for my biking and running activity. I will be an active participant to insure that these new businesses will be good neighbors, and I have no doubt they will. 5 years from now when a multitude of businesses and landowners are fully operating there won’t be a peep it will run so well. Of course, there’s always a few who will whine about truck traffic, which shows a selfish lack of common sense. We desperately need these good jobs, many hundreds of jobs when you add up the dry plants, wash plants, and drivers. The whole area will benefit. It amazes me that so many blind people want to keep the area in absolute poverty forcing our young people to move away. I guess that’s what ghosts and goblins can do to otherwise semi-sensible people.
Well, this post probably will not be posted by this site as my last one responding to Gloria wasn’t. This site does have to keep its one sided agenda in place now, don’t they? But for the heck of it we’ll try again.
“small trusting townspeople”
This sounds like an insult to local people. I am local people. Born and raised, lived all of my life in Wisconsin and most of it in Chippewa County. As I do now. That is the method of the left, paint the “poor naive” local people as victims. We “small trusting” local people are not as naive as you think. The vast majority of us support this new business opportunity whether we will profit it from it or not. It’s very obvious the entire Chippewa Valley will profit and benefit in many ways.
“If there was any moral empathies shown by many of the large companies involved in the issue of frac sand mining, we would not need, nor would we be having this discourse”
What are you babbling about? Moral empathies? The companies (and some of them are local) have shown a great willingness to work with local people and townships. They have been far more willing to compromise than they would have to. They have done much to become good neighbors. Perhaps if the leftists would employ some common sense and equal compromise we could all find common ground. It’s too bad all the gravel pit operations of the past weren’t HALF this moral and forthright.
“Sand mining here in Wisconsin results in very few local jobs. We lose our beautiful hills ”
This is either a lie or simply a misconception based on fantasy. The sand business here will result in hundreds of quality jobs, not even counting the truckers! 75 quality jobs is squat to a city like Bloomer?? From just one company dry plant? At least attempt to sound like you know what you’re talking about. “We lose OUR hills” You don’t own hills, RIGHT??
Neither do I, and I sure am not so bold or foolish as to tell someone who does what he can or can not do with the property they paid for and paid taxes on. Private property ownership still has protections thank God, this is not a Marxist socialistic utopia yet. Unfortunately that is what the left has planned for us, the end of private ownership, the end to the individual, the end to ambition and incentive, and the beginning of true enslavement and the statist society free of such anchors as the Constitution.
Bingo! Common ground, and due process. Very important part of environmental law. From your very own http://blog.cleanwisconsin.org/index.php/page/2/ ” Under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), we are owed a full disclosure of all the environmental impacts of a project so that we – an applicant, state regulators, the general public – can make an informed, rational decision about whether a project is in our best interest. We are
afforded notice and comment periods, public hearings and a right to appeal…. why? Because the air and water belong to all of us. ” That includes the water, air, soil, being impacted, compromised on public lands, as well as on private lands.
Good quality jobs? Truckers? Might want to check out frac sand, and truckers report.com. They talk about the fair, the bad, the ugly, but mostly ugly hauling frac sand. Very interesting thread by experienced truckers.
“Sand mining here in Wisconsin results in very few local jobs.”
This could be called a lie, but you would have to know the facts to actually lie. I believe it is not a lie, just a statement by someone who has allowed her/himself to be led around by the ring in their nose. When you count just the wash plants and dry plants we are talking about hundreds of quality jobs in the Chippewa Valley alone, not even counting the truckers!! You are saying 75 jobs in just one dry plant is “very few jobs” to a city like Bloomer?? Do you have a clue as to what jobs have been brought to the New Auburn and Chetek area?? When this is just beginning, we will have far more jobs coming in after that?? Do you realize 7 guys (at last count) have left a Chippewa county job to take a job with one of the sand companies?? In case you missed it, that’s 7 more well benefited county jobs that open up for someone that otherwise wouldn’t be there! 13 people left a local blacktop company to join up with a sand company. That isn’t a minus (it may be with your math), that’s a plus! Those jobs then need to be filled. Wow, I can see why sheep to stumble along on this site, it’s what they do best. We are talking about hundreds of quality jobs for us here in the Chippewa Valley, ADDED to the Chippewa Valley. At least try to be realistic.
That is absolutely huge, and absolutely positive.
“We lose our beautiful hills”
This has got to be the most simple minded statement anyone can utter on the matter. You are either far removed from reality or are an avowed Marxist. Do you own these hills? Do you understand how our system of private ownership and the private sector works? Let me guess, you do NOT own any hills. Right? Neither do I, and I’m not ignorant enough to claim any of them. Where I live I am surrounded by them, and some of them will be reclaimed to farm land, forest, and prairie grass. Some will remain. That is not my call, it is the land owners call. If this was a socialist nation, as maybe you would prefer, the state would seize them. Ahhh, the true goal of the elite “progressives”.
I have trucks rolling down my road where once I could walk or bike at any time. I have been impacted by this new business activity. I now walk and run at selected times only, and sometimes drive out of my way to walk or bike. Am I complaining? No, only someone jaded and removed from common sense reality would complain. Someone with selfish motives. I am not the reason these roads were built, and even though I do not need this revenue or the jobs that are flooding into the area I am real enough to know that many others do. I welcome this new business as we all should. I will monitor activity, we all have a right to do that, but so far they have been good neighbors in every way. The last great ice age is what left us with much of this sand, the way I look at it some of it will be put back the way it was before the last glaciers made their big dump here. Much of it will be reclaimed to farm land and forest. What isn’t will mostly be prairie. What have you against native prairie grass lands? Again, if you are of the blind attitude that “this must be stopped” your train has left the station. If you are of the attitude that we should welcome this new opportunity for the Chippewa Valley but continue to monitor it and work with the land owners and agencies then I stand with you.
“Do you own these hills? Do you understand how our system of private ownership and the private sector works? Let me guess, you do NOT own any hills. Right? Neither do I, and I’m not ignorant enough to claim any of them.”
The problem is a problem of what we share in common. Our air and water don’t follow property lines. Noise and light pollution don’t stop at a sand mine’s boundary. The owners and shareholders of the mining companies don’t live next door to their mines. Their wells don’t run dry; their walls aren’t cracked by blasting. Our vehicles don’t destroy roads constructed for light use. They don’t send their kids on school buses on those same roads. They aren’t involved in the tourist industry.
We owe it to each other to protect our common resources. If sand mining can be regulated to minimize these impacts on the commons, then go ahead. But if not, then we should stop them.
Sand mining here in Wisconsin results in very few local jobs. We lose our beautiful hills and rolling lands. The companies make big bucks, ship the sand to PA, Ohio, NY, or wherever so that companies there can devastate the land, destroy water supplies, cause earthquakes, etc. What leaves Wisconsin is destroying other neighborhoods and people. That is not anything to be proud of.
“you have convinced me you are only a paid shill for the frac sand industry”
To say so demonstrates your paranoia and delusion. Your type can not fathom how anyone who has given any thought to the matter would not join with you. You have convinced yourself that you are right, no matter what reality is or the FACTS tell you.
I have NEVER worked for any sand company directly or indirectly. I have never had a conversation with them. I have attended some meetings, that’s the extent of my interaction with them. I did do my own independent research, and I have been working in fields all of my life that had many of the same concerns (although not energy fields). I was born and raised in this area, lived all of my life in Wisconsin, and live near the current active excavation sites now. Your lame attempt to demonize “frac sand” is laughable.
“You portray a lack of empathy, for the people, for the land, ..”
I am the “people”. I live here, on the same road as truck activity, but own no sand. I could more so say the same about you. You are not the people, the vast majority of the people support the jobs, the revenue, and this great opportunity. It’s fine to monitor any activity, but when your are completely devoid of common sense, reality, and cherry pick your “facts” with a closed mind you really are hurting your own jaded cause.
” You cannot come back with a legitimate rebuttal with any facts, numbers, proven data links, nothing, nada”
This is maybe the the statement that is most desperate. I have enough “facts and data” to break the bandwidth bank on this site. You choose to cherry pick your date from cartoons like “Gasland”. You have an agenda, and your agenda does not include facts, common
sense, or reality in any form. Facts, common sense, and reality would not serve your master, your agenda.
As said, your mind is made up.
Shill, infiltrator, plant, apologist, they are all the same, and do not necessarily work at any company, but their agenda is the same….to smooze the small trusting townspeople, to sway by derision, intimidation, to downplay legitimate concerns.
If there was any moral empathies shown by many of the large companies involved in the issue of frac sand mining, we would not need, nor would we be having this discourse, now would we?
I’ll add one more thing. If your attitude is simply that all these or any new sand operations should be banned you belong to the loons. I know you believe you are looking out for the public good, but what you represent is very far from it. There is no reality or common sense in your tainted world.
If your attitude is that we should welcome but have to carefully monitor this activity as partners with adjacent land owners, county, township, and DNR then I will join you. These sand operations not only will be here, they absolutetly should be here for the better of all. There is no more threat from these operations than you would have from any such sized business. We are not talking about dozens of high quality jobs, we are talking about many hundreds of quality jobs, not even counting the truck drivers. This is a great thing and we are very lucky in the area to have this great opportunity. When all is up and running there will be nothing but smiles all will operate so well. Except for a few select loons of course. You know the type, the ones that take old dog food bags to the grocery store to carry their grocerys out in and bring their own water to a restaurant. Those that see a ghost and goblin around every corner. These people are not looking out for anyone but their own misguided fantasy.
OK ,you have convinced me you are only a paid shill for the frac sand industry, or maybe not. You portray a lack of empathy, for the people, for the land, and overawe with superiority. You cannot come back with a legitimate rebuttal with any facts, numbers, proven data links, nothing, nada. All you do is name call, condemn, intimidate, give ridiculous anecdotol examples. Whether your attitude is due to simple ignorance, or you feel threatened(why?) by the the sane, responsible, intelligent, fact finding comments, questions here, shared by concerned people that are looking out for the better good of everyone, and the land, remains to be seen. This is no fantasy, the threats are real, not percieved, there is a clear, and present danger……. and I have no doubt in my mind who the real ‘loons’ are.
Let’s get something straight, I live in this area, very near active sand “mines”. I was born and raised here. I am an engineer by education (Michigan State) but before I retired was a hydrologist by trade to be more exacting. I did not work for energy companies or any kind of aggragate or mining operation. I am now retired, and love to kayak, run, bike, and hike. Even with my background, I took some time to research the process fully starting about 4 years ago. I know quite a bit about particulate in general, and sand as well. The flocculant issue I have dealt with all of my life, and I applied that background with my new research on this matter. Let me tell you, if you knew about flocculant use at the municipal level paranoid people like yourselves would not drink your tap water. You probably would not shower, you’d buy bottled water and bathe in it. Not knowing where THAT water came from!
I could tear up about all the bandwidth this site could handle, but none of us want to read that long into the day and night. I can see what people gather here, and it’s clear you all already have your minds made up. It doesn’t matter how wrong you are or how twisted your thought process is, what you WANT to believe is what you have chosen to believe and no facts or logic will change your mind. What is going on here is simply excavating sand. Very much how we have excavated gravel for 100 years, and in places sand as well. The difference is we now have many more regulations and much more oversight. The difference is while in the past they went below water table they now stay above water table. The difference is they now have wells for constant review, where before they had none. This is one very sound operation, and these businesses will be nothing but an asset to the entire area for a very long time to come. The health risks some of you people talk about is so far out in space they really do not warrant comment. But I will offer comment in one case. As another note, while I love to use our roads for my recreation, I’m pragmatic and sane enough to know that these roads were NOT built for my recreational use.
” Nearby residents, pets, livestock and wildlife also are at risk of harmful exposure. In addition to the risk to people from airborne contaminants carried by the wind, there is also the issue of exposure caused by transportation of frac sand by truck or rail hundreds of miles away from a mining operation.”
This comment highlites the kind of thinking from the lunatic fringe. I’ll put it simply, there is zero threat to the health of the public from any of the sand excavation sites in this area. Farmers in the field have far more threat from their own operation, and if you check medical records you will not find a history. The trucks are tarped by the way, what exposure are you talking about from hundreds of miles away?? You people talk as if this simple sand, exactly (for composite sake) the stuff in your sand box and beaches, is some kind of toxin. It is sand. Wake up. But I wouldn’t count on it. Like I said, your mind is made up and unless your cereal bos tells you differently you’re going to believe what you want to believe.
Well, finally we have a clueless response. Let’s look at it, shall we?
“Oops, I guess that is the mission of the DNR, to PROTECT the natural resources, no igonre the mission of the DNR to do the bidding of the WMC who have long wanted these regulations removed because of the false cry that they prevent profits. ”
This is the kind of misguided drivel you get from the “fringe”. It is NOT the mission to lock up natural resources so a chsen few in La LA La land can dance in the moon light. The DNR is one entity, along wirth state, county, and MSHAW who have oversight on sand mining. Along with gravel mining, hot mix plants for asphalt, oil and gas exploration and drilling, logging, etc etc etc. Right out of the book of Marx and Alinsky, say something enough times and you’ll get a number of blind sheep to follow.
” People like you are the reason why people like my friend in Chippewa county are sick about the health risks.”
That would be a physcological problem. This person either needs to pull the ring out of their nose and get some real information or call a shrink. If this person can hold out a few years they’ll find there is nothing to fret about. Not in the least.
” The complex issue, including the health risks to humans, water and air are REAL.”
I know you believe they are real, as some people believe in ghosts and goblins. There is risk with a large scale logging operation, and there is risk from fravel mining. Do you have any clue how many gravel AND sand mines there are in the midwest?? IN Wisconsin?? Operating for many decades? I took a very long look at this, with a very open mind. The “health risks” simply do not exist. Silicosis is an occupational hazard, there is no risk to the public. Farmers have faced that risk head on for generations. If you’re waiting to hear the number of cases in the last few decades all you will hear is the crickets in your head. There are giant sand mines that have been in operation for decades, far larger than any we have here. Do some real research, with an open mond, and educate yourself.
“Sand Frac mining is filled with corruption.”
To make such a statement clearly defines you as a loon.
” Good thing Walker is being recalled, as well as four other Republicans. Maybe we can get the state government out of the hands of the corporate fascists and back into the hands of the real people.”
Such a statement is telling, it clearly defines you as a leftist in denial. Governor walker has led with great vision. Not only will he WIN this recall but he’ll be stronger for it. He is a shoe in for 4 MORE YEARS! “Back into the hands of the real people” ?? You mean like Doyle? Obozo and his band of merry thieves?
“Our state deserves better than these out of state companies ruining our towns and creating horrible living conditions that will lead to long term healths risks and polluting the air and water.”
We all want a clean environment. Unfortunately we all want a car to drive, store bought clothing, a grocery store to purchase our food in instead of growing it all, etc etc. I’m not sure which you lack more, common sense or real world education.
Clearly you have never been on a hydrocarbon fast, tried very hard to conserve water, reduced meat consumption, or various other environmentally sound, ethical, moral, sane measures to protect, conserve our depleting natural resources for future local generations. I have been researching sand mining, have gathered information from residents of Texas that have had many, many years of dealing with the issues of responsible drilling. Wisconsin, Minnesota are dealing with more recent stealth miners, quietly, furtively, invading(rushing) their counties. Issues. For one, just the amount of potable water used by frac sand miners to clean this so called special sand is mind boggling, it makes efforts by regular people to conserve water resources look pitiful. What’s the use when the average person uses at the most according to the US Geological Survey, 80 to 100 gallons of water per day. A sand mine can use up to about 1,944,720,000 gallons of water a year for washing sand, the equivalent water use of about 53,280 people for a year. That is a lot of water!
Health issues related to sand mining. How dare you downplay! Obviously, workers at a frac sand mining site are the most prone to hazardous exposure, but they are hardly the only ones at risk. Nearby residents, pets, livestock and wildlife also are at risk of harmful exposure. In addition to the risk to people from airborne contaminants carried by the wind, there is also the issue of exposure caused by transportation of frac sand by truck or rail hundreds of miles away from a mining operation. Few would ever have a clue from where their exposure came, or who was responsible for it. Here again is the issue of quiet, furtive, stealth tactics used by miners.
Economic boost from sand mining, hydro fracking? Profits only for for the gas producing companies and their partners. Promises of vast amounts of recoverable gas have been questioned by several prominent industry experts. Promises of high signing bonuses have given way to much smaller initial payments in most areas of the country. Promises of high royalty payments to mineral owners and municipalities have proven to be false and misleading. Promises of “energy independence” from the Middle East have been proven to be false considering that the two biggest import sources of energy to the US are Canada and Mexico, and that the entire Middle East accounts for a small percentage of total US imports.
Promises of a 60-200 year supply of natural gas that will power our nation have fallen to the truth that actual recoverable reserves are probably no more than 20% of the total quantity of gas known to exist and that we are building terminals to export much of our production to China and India, yes, even frac sand is being exported, where prices are much higher, rather than keeping it here to provide “energy independence” Yes, I believe what the regular joes are telling me, not what miners, any miners, or their affiliates, would want, or have me believe.
Dear Anonymous,
I have some of the same concerns about your rebuttal of “Barbara” as I did of Ishmael’s emotional attack on “Barbaba”. I do agree that getting into the political realm just intensifies the emotional aspects of this topic; however, you are both entitled to your opinion. That notwithstanding, I see a person who is attacking another person of different political persuation rather than rebutting with proven fact.
“Sand Frac mining is filled with corruption”—–Your response, “To make such a statement clearly defines you as a loon.” I assume you to mean by a loon that “Barbara” is goofy to crazy, or somewhere in between. Have you gathered facts to prove that Barbara is incorrect in stating the quote above?
Again, I ask you how much do you really know about Frac Sand Mining?
1) Do you know how the DNR has been reshaped in the last year?
2) Are you aware of how officials in Towns and Counties have had donations given to their schools and libraries by these mining companies?
3) Are you aware of how many politicians have been offered seminars on how safe the Frac Sand industries are?
This is just a small sample of the things you should investigate, before you chastise Barbara and her KIND. Making inflamable statements only serves to create more problems.
I apologize to you if I have offended you; that is not my intent. If both sides would try to edify themselves, we might find away to get along and do the right thing.
Ben Burnt
Bleating Frac Sand Mining
This is a story of not only what could happen, but what is, already history. Real names will be dropped and replaced with names appropriately matched to their deeds. We therefore ask that each one of you reading this, take a look at what is going on in your area with a jaundice eye. Clandestine activity has been rampant in this state for some time now; we very much need to scrutinize the miners and their allies’ every move. Take nothing at face value.
This story starts with sheep living tranquilly and grazing peacefully in their valley. Suddenly, a wolf appears upon the horizon, rounding up the goats for his “Blitz Krieg” attack to lead the many sheep to slaughter. This wolf is an artist and presents a different appearance to each subject that he wishes to control. He rounds up politicos, government bodies, land owners, job seekers, tradesmen, and the herd of unsuspecting sheep. This is usually done with the “almighty dollar” and promises of great things for everyone. There is never a mention of the detractors and the long-term disasters. Fortunately, many of these sheep have awakened and became roaring lions, barracudas, and tenacious badgers. Even though it is a “David and Goliath” battle, these sheep are fighting by the rules; that is more than can be said for the wolf and his gang of goats.
This brings us to two of the latest chapters in this ever-intensifying battle. There are many villages where most of the sheep have gone about grazing and are totally oblivious to the fact that the savvy wolf has brought all the goats with power and/or vested interests into his goat “superior stature”-fold. At a bleating session (public hearing) not long ago, a black goat (a black goat is used to lead sheep into the slaughter house) was controlling the bleating and who was allowed to bleat. It was obvious that the wolf and the black goat had had a secret bleating session ahead of time and had planned a bleating “Dog & Pony” show. Even though the bleating agenda (newspaper notice) stated that all would have their turn to bleat, no one but the wolf and his goats were allowed to have their time to bleat. In spite of the oath taken by the wolf and goats to bleat the “truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”, most of the bleating was off key and distorted. One of the biggest distortions was the bleating that went on about the probing for water. The goat in charge of water probing had a memory problem in regard to bringing the documents which gave crucial information about the problems experienced. The black goat simply accepted the bleating explanation that recovery time was pretty good (which was a falsehood). This brings us to the latest chapter.
At the next village bleating session (Town meeting), a bleating sheep bleated out the facts about the water situation in the village. The goats were bleatingly upset, and took action to get the water permit almost immediately. Even though there was a request for a water- monitoring test by the sheep (which should have been granted), the DNR-llamas spit in the face of the sheep and granted the water permit. One sheep, in particular, believes that a politico-fox aided and abetted the wolf by bleating to the bull-moose in Madison. End of story, and nobody is riding off into the sunset just yet.
Yours Bleatingly, A Sheep, Whose Wool Stinks When It Burns
And trust me, I have heard all the lies about how “all of us” up north are in favor of mining. Lies. Period. Every single public hearing proved more people oppose it. Every listening session, proved people are opposed. And yet liars still keep coming out with statements like, “Everyone wants mining.” Looks like there are lots of secret meetings going on here, undermining clean and open government. Please. we call that “propaganda.” But if you are into faith-based science, faith-based medicine and faith-based climate change, then you will never get it because for you, the lies are real. Oh well. Keep fighting Chippewa County. Our state deserves better than these out of state companies ruining our towns and creating horrible living conditions that will lead to long term healths risks and polluting the air and water. So very sad.
really? what color is the sky in your world? seems like everything you say is exactly describing you. “Plenty of oversight?” Are you aware that with Walker becoming Governor the DNR was stacked with former employees of WMC? Really? How about if we stack the WNC with your so called TREEHUGGERS? Oops, I guess that is the mission of the DNR, to PROTECT the natural resources, no igonre the mission of the DNR to do the bidding of the WMC who have long wanted these regulations removed because of the false cry that they prevent profits. Gosh maybe YOUR profits aren’t worth it if it poses such a health risk to so many>
So these people are just so idle they have nothing better to do than needlessly complain about an out of control industry that is frought with corruption? And because they are calling it out, you claim they are “one-sided?” Please. People like you are the reason why people like my friend in Chippewa county are sick about the health risks. Documenting the lies. And people like you who just deny deny deny put all the rest of the state at risk.
I know, we have dealt with your weak arguments up north. People who oppose mining are “tree huggers.” Oh please. The complex issue, including the health risks to humans, water and air are REAL. That people are concerned makes them real. Your baseless, insulting and argumentative statements only make you appear to be someone who will profit, or have friends who will profit, or have no idea what you are talking about. Either way, your position is the one-sided one. Sand Frac mining is filled with corruption. Period. Sad what is happening to our state. Good thing Walker is being recalled, as well as four other Republicans. Maybe we can get the state government out of the hands of the corporate fascists and back into the hands of the real people.
I was born and raised in Chippewa County and have continued to live here all of my life. I do not have any land with sand on it, nor do I work for a sand company. This web site is so blindly one sided and partisan to their idiotic agenda that it reads like a comic book. Those representing those opposed to mining fall under 4 categories. Blatant no nothing tree huggers (and they actually represent the minority of nay sayers), those that are uninfomed, those that are misinformed, and finally the simply jealous. There is no doubt the jobs this industry has and will bring to this area will be a major positive, more massive than any other we’ve seen in Chippewa County as a whole for an awful long time. If ever. Economically, this is a great thing for us all. I bike and run on the roads and fish and hunt like many of you do. Anyone with common sense values the environment. Anyone with common sense will also know that we need jobs and revenue to survive, and there is plenty of oversight already in place to protect the public as there is with ANY business. In reality, there is nothing to protect the public from any more so than any business venture of this size would bring. “Opposition from the Community”…..what opposition?? The vast majority of the “community” is heavily in favor of this new industry for obvious reasons. ALL business on a large scale brings hustle and change, in this case change for the better. The only opposition is from the likes of the people who see this site as a “protector” of the people. In reality this is a site for the clueless to gather.
Dear Ishmael,
Here are some questions you may may want to seek answers to, before you make judgements on these people you named above.
1) What do you know about PM10 silica?
2) what do you know about flocculants such as polyacrylamide, acrylamide, aluminum sulfate, iron sulfate, and other chemicals.
3) What do you know about sand mine process flow?
4) What do you know about the history of the DNR, now at the status of Natural Resource Agency? Did you know a high official in the DNR stated the DNR was not qualified to deal with Frac Sand Mining?
5) What do you know about the Hydrology of your area or anywhere there is mining?
These questions barely scratch the surface of what you need to know before passing judgement on your above named people.
Even I cannot find all the answers to the questions that need answers and I have dealt with this for over 45 years.
Sincerely,
Ben Burnt